On discipline and children!

[Aaron (Al) Lewis]

As a child may of us were taught that to be beaten, spanked, whipped, slapped, and swatted to name a few terms was an effective and appropriate way of being disciplined. In fact, many people report having to harvest or gather their own instruments of torture, "go get me a switch", more than likely a limb, or "bring me that ironing cord” or” unplug that extension cord and give it here”, or” where’s that fan belt or paddle?." Many parents and teachers even had names for their devices of pain, Mr. Pain, The Beast, The Love Board, Sweetness as if it was funny.

Do you see this? Even the devices of pain reminds one of some medieval torture chamber and for certain the pain that was about to be exploded upon your body was the same pain that those wretched souls experienced in those chambers.

Many of us were told, while getting trees beaten upon our backsides and extremities, that this was an act of love. What love! What love?

Many school systems have banned or regulated the practice, yet parents are petitioning to bring beatings back! They say that under the old corporeal punishment rules things were better, while they are in a statistical dead heat before and after with the continued devolvement of public education. In other words it hasn't made a difference or impact on how well children learn and that is what education is about, learning, not torture and to beat a person is to torture them. It's funny how practices like this are being eliminated from being done to terror suspects and are in fact illegal, while many parents still practice it and are advocating the practice on all children in the government education system That means that detained and/or convicted terror suspects have more rights than your child. What a people, what a country.

My question: Is this, beating, a legitimate form of discipline? Is it discipline period? Where does this practice come from? Is it effective and if so effective at what?
Is this condoned by the biblical phrase, "Spare the rod, spoil the child"? Are you sure? What's the difference between being disciplined and punished?

Let's talk about it.

[Clifford Black]

I am suggesting that those who may be interested in the above discussion acquire a copy of "Dicipline Violence and the African American Child". Copies of this work are availabe on the internet @ $5.oo. For those who were participants in the redpilltraning11 class. There is no charge.

[kelvin stout]

AL the answer to your question is no. Beating is never a legitimate form of teaching a child. Punishment should not be confused with discipline. One has to do injury, pain, penal and penalty. The others has more to do with observation. Learning by watching and practicing what is being shown until he/she understands a particular subject or discipline. As a child I was beaten under the guise of discipline and it taught me how to beat on others. Usually the person doing the punishing,(beating) wanted to maintain control or get control of me. So, for me, there is no doubt discipline and punishment are two separate things. As to when whipping actually started I do not know but Dr. Black has suggested I go back to the catholic church and study the methods used to train jesuits.

[Adisa]

Namaska, I learned something from each of you who have contributed.  I too was raised with physical "discipline" as punishement to correct my behavior.  I promised to never subject my children to the forms of beatings I received, but I now have a better understanding that no matter how much less severe the act I am still hitting my children.  The strange thing is I have heard people say, one shouldn't beat a dog to correct it, but at the same time say physical punishment is necessary to correct children's behaviors.  Dr. B, I would very much be interested in obtaining a copy of Discipine Violence and the African American Child.   

[Clifford Black]

Make sure to remind me in case I loose the thought. It is on one of the reading disk and if I can find, I will send to you with some other material. Maybe while you are in Memphis I can get these things to you.

B.

[Pamela Monde]

I think beating instills fear in the person being beaten, however, what that achieves I am not sure...What usually happens is that the fear of that beating subsides and hence the beatings must become more severe to achieve that same result. In the midst of it all the reason for the beating becomes lost to the person being beaten and only fear and resentment are left.....Discipline is a different issue and has great rewards because ultimately we want a person to be self-disciplined. That I believed must be demonstrated.....Strictly my opinion.

[Aaron (Al) Lewis]

An astute opine. Pamela. I thought about looking at it that way. However, it sure adds up to what I experienced as a child. The lessons got lost in the cruelty of the act, hence I was committed to do anything to avoid the beatings including learning to lie very, very well! Of course that further infuriated the beater and the beatings became more and more severe. It came down to me leaving of killing this person. I chose to leave at an early age, but the thoughts or murder persisted even until this week.

I wonder if those parents ever think about that fine young man or woman they are "raising right" is having homicidal ideations in the next room?

[Adisa]

After someone asked me to participate in a survey regarding the topic, "Beating vs Not Beating."  At the beginning of the survey was the old adage, "Spare the Rod Spoil the Child."  The author of the survey continued on to write the following, "beatings should only be used as a corrective measure, not a sign of who is superior or dominant nor to inflict injury, "beatings should not be to dish out pain and injury but sting just enough to let the child know, I've messed up and Mommy/Daddy is really upset, I aint doin that again," "Beatings can be effective when done by intelligent mentally sound folk, that love their children, and "...every child doesn't need physical discipline." 

Now that I really think about this survey, I'm thinking, what was this survey supposed to accomplish?  Was there some goal in mind or was it more or less for those that strike their children to feel valid in their actions.  I could have given an educated guess regarding the results without even having to see the survey or the results.  I did not take the survey but addressed most of the points made by the author directly to the author.  I asked him questions regarding spare the rod being in the bible.  I asked if punishment and discipline were the same.  I asked if an intelligent mentally sound person could make a rational reasonable decision while being angry.  I asked if there could be a connection with people who have been "spanked" as children who stay in abusing relationships as adults.  I asked if beatings were a corrective measure, should adults correct other adults, should a employer be able to correct an employee.  I even asked if a parent in their ederly years became dependenat on their child, should the child also be able to correct an unwanted action of their parent?  His response, those are valid questions, BUT.... 

Based upon his response, I decided to engage a few others on this topic and no one could address the questions raised.  Those I spoke with even would say things like they thought their parents were crazy, from the ways they were beaten, actually, most preferred the softer term of spanking.  The room grew noticeably quiet when I asked if it were alright then if a husband spanked his spouse, until someone wanted to make a joke about it.  Yet no one wanted to really address the questions.  I attempted to explain the difference between punishment and discipline and still would continue to hear about an angry parent giving physical discipline for what was deemed both warranted and unwarranted behavior.  I even had a coworker joyously tell me about obtaining permission from a parent to "spank" a child.  The entire time I was listening to this person, I thought about all the things that could have been going through the mind of that child.  Their own parent who is supposed to protect and love offered them up to someone else.  Even IF some how a parent can convince themselves that a spanking can be done with love and care, what is going through the mind of that same parent who would not only allow someone with no loving connection to their child to physically hit and even give permission.  Having just written this last thought, it just hit me, what right or authority does another person have to give someone else permission to do anything to my body?!  I have watched hours of nature shows and have yet to see a wild/savage animal offer their offspring up.  An angry god is justified in punishing his children with acts of violence. 

The more I am thinking about this and what is going on, what is being done and has been done to children, and yes, what I may have done to my very own children, I'm fighting back tears.  The entire village is not whole yet are raising children.  I ask myself more and more each day, how has human life continued this long?   

[Clifford Black]

Hope there comes a time, when everyone would investigate and examine why, "they", are being the way that they are being.

B.

Also, Adisa, will contact you about the Book-'Discipline, Violence and the African American Child',as soon as possible.

B.